my little winter project

[twkdcd595]

I may not totally agree with the above but it is 99.9% true... I just dont know if I would go so far as to say all other f22's are substandard to the f22a... either way thats not the point of my post.

The big issue with the f22 and higher rpms is going to be bearing life but given you run a good harmonic damper and not some un dampened junk underdrive pulley... you should not see much problem. then you can focus on the more important issue... a camshaft that will still make power up that high.

Btw I am a boost junky so, my suggestions always lean to that and depending on your goals... the cyl walls in the setup I briefly suggested will hold up just fine to moderate power/ cyl pressure levels. I also agree though that I would not hog out the cyls besides to put a hone on them if boost is a future possibility.

I did not notice that in briefly reading your post earlier, but as stated above the f series crank is forged.

[twkdcd595]

Blocks
BLOCK TYPE
H22A = closed deck
H22A1 = closed deck
H22A4 = open deck
H23A = open deck
H23A1 = closed deck
F20A = open deck
F20B = open deck
F22A = open deck
F22B = open deck
F22B1 = open deck
F22B2 = open deck
F23A = open deck

DECK HEIGHT
H22A = 219.5mm/8.643
H22A1 = 219.5mm/8.643
H22A4 = 219.5mm/8.643
H23A = 219.5mm/8.643
H23A1 = 219.5mm/8.643
F20A = 219.5mm/8.643
F20B = 219.5mm/8.643
F22A = 219.5mm/8.643
F22B = 219.5mm/8.643
F22B1 = 219.5mm/8.643
F22B2 = 219.5mm/8.643
F23A = 219.5mm/8.643

BORE
H22A block = 87mm/3.425
H22A1 block = 87mm/3.425
H22A4 Block = 87mm/3.425
H23A block = 87mm/3.425
H23A1 block = 87mm/3.425
F20A block = 85mm/3.346
F20B block = 85mm/3.346
F22A block = 85mm/3.346
F22B block = 85mm/3.346
F22B1 block = 85mm/3.346
F22B2 block = 85mm/3.346
F23A block = 86mm/3.385

Rods

LENGTH
H22A = 143.0mm/5.633
H22A1 = 143.0mm/5.633
H22A4 = 143.0mm/5.633
H23A = 141.5mm/5.572
H23A1 = 141.5mm/5.572
F20A = 145.0mm/5.709
F20B = 145.0mm/5.709
F22A = 141.5mm/5.572
F22B = 141.5mm/5.572
F22B1 = 141.5mm/5.572
F22B2 = 141.5mm/5.572
F23A = 141.0mm/5.551

WIDTH
H22A = 23.75mm/.935
H22A1 = 23.75mm/.935
H22A4 = 23.75mm/.935
H23A = 23.75mm/.935
H23A1 = 23.75mm/.935
F20A = 23.75mm/.935
F20B = 23.75mm/.935
F22A = 23.75mm/.935
F22B = 23.75mm/.935
F22B1 = 23.75mm/.935
F22B2 = 23.75mm/.935
F23A = 19.81mm/.780

MAIN BORE
H22A = 51.00mm/2.008
H22A1 = 51.00mm/2.008
H22A4 = 51.00mm/2.008
H23A = 51.00mm/2.008
H23A1 = 51.00mm/2.008
F20A = ???
F20B = 48.00mm/1.890
F22A = 51.00mm/2.008
F22B = 51.00mm/2.008
F22B1 = 51.00mm/2.008
F22B2 = 51.00mm/2.008
F23A = 48.00mm/1.890

PIN BORE
H22A = 21.97-21.98mm/.8649-.8654
H22A1 = 21.97-21.98mm/.8649-.8654
H22A4 = 21.97-21.98mm/.8649-.8654
H23A = 21.97-21.98mm/.8649-.8654
H23A1 = 21.97-21.98mm/.8649-.8654
F20A = 21.97-21.98mm/.8649-.8654
F20B = 21.97-21.98mm/.8649-.8654
F22A = 21.97-21.98mm/.8649-.8654
F22B = 21.97-21.98mm/.8649-.8654
F22B1 = 21.97-21.98mm/.8649-.8654
F22B2 = 21.97-21.98mm/.8649-.8654
F23A = 21.97-21.98mm/.8649-.8654

Pistons

BORE
H22A = 87mm/3.425
H22A1 = 87mm/3.425
H22A4 = 87mm/3.425
H23A = 87mm/3.425
H23A1 = 87mm/3.425
F20A = 85mm/3.346
F20B = 85mm/3.346
F22A = 85mm/3.346
F22B = 85mm/3.346
F22B1 = 85mm/3.346
F22B2 = 85mm/3.346
F23A = 86mm/3.385

COMPRESSION HEIGHT
H22A = 31.0mm/1.221
H22A1 = 31.0mm/1.221
H22A4 = 31.0mm/1.221
H23A = 30.5mm/1.203
H23A1 = 30.5mm/1.203
F20A = ???
F20B = 31.0mm/1.221
F22A = 30.5mm/1.203
F22B = 30.5mm/1.203
F22B1 = 30.5mm/1.203
F22B2 = 30.5mm/1.203
F23A = 30.0mm/1.181

PISTON VOLUME
H22A = -1.9 cc
H22A Type S = +4.2 cc
H22A1 = -1.8 cc
H22A4 = -1.8 cc
H23A = +4.3 cc
H23A1 = -9.9 cc
F20A = -4.7 cc
F20B = +8.0 cc
F22A = -14.5 cc
F22B = -11.2 cc
F22B1 = -14.5 cc
F22B2 = -14.5 cc
F23A = -18.0 cc

WRIST PIN DIAMETER
H22A = 22.0mm/.866
H22A1 = 22.0mm/.866
H22A4 = 22.0mm/.866
H23A = 22.0mm/.866
H23A1 = 22.0mm/.866
F20A = 22.0mm/.866
F20B = 22.0mm/.866
F22A = 22.0mm/.866
F22B = 22.0mm/.866
F22B1 = 22.0mm/.866
F22B2 = 22.0mm/.866
F23A = 22.0mm/.866

Crankshafts

STROKE
H22A = 90.7mm/3.570
H22A1 = 90.7mm/3.570
H22A4 = 90.7mm/3.570
H23A = 95mm/3.740
H23A1 = 95mm/3.740
F20A = 88mm/3.464
F20B = 88mm/3.464
F22A = 95mm/3.740
F22B = 95mm/3.740
F22B1 = 95mm/3.740
F22B2 = 95mm/3.740
F23A = 97mm/3.818

MAIN JOURNAL DIAMETER
H22A = 50mm
H22A1 = 50mm
H22A4 = 55mm
H22A4 = 50mm (1997 Only)
H23A = 55mm
H23A1 = 50mm
F20A = 50mm
F20B = 55mm
F22A = 50mm
F22B = 50mm
F22B1 = 50mm
F22B2 = 50mm
F23A = 55mm

ROD JOURNAL DIAMETER
H22A = 47.95mm/1.888
H22A1 = 47.95mm/1.888
H22A4 = 47.95mm/1.888
H23A = 47.95mm/1.888
H23A1 = 47.95mm/1.888
F20A = 47.95mm/1.888
F20B = 44.98mm/1.771
F22A = 47.95mm/1.888
F22B = 47.95mm/1.888
F22B1 = 47.95mm/1.888
F22B2 = 47.95mm/1.888
F23A = 44.98mm/1.771

Cylinder Heads

HEAD VOLUME
H22A = 53.8cc
H22A1 = 53.8cc
H22A4 = 53.8cc
H23A = 53.8cc
H23A1 = 50.0cc
F20A = 50cc
F20B = ???
F22A = 50.5cc
F22B = 50.5
F22B1 = 50.6cc
F22B2 = 50.6cc
F23A = ???

INTAKE VALVE DIAMETER
H22A = 35mm/1.38
H22A1 = 35mm/1.38
H22A4 = 35mm/1.38
H23A = 35mm/1.38
H23A1 = 34mm/1.34
F20A = 34mm/1.34
F20B = 34mm/1.34
F22A = 34mm/1.34
F22B = 34mm/1.34
F22B1 = 34mm/1.34
F22B2 = 34mm/1.34
F23A = 34mm/1.34

EXHAUST VALVE DIAMETER
H22A = 30mm/1.18
H22A1 = 30mm/1.18
H22A4 = 30mm/1.18
H23A = 30mm/1.18
H23A1 = 29mm/1.14
F20A = 29mm/1.14
F20B = 29mm/1.14
F22A = 29mm/1.14
F22B = 29mm/1.14
F22B1 = 29mm/1.14
F22B2 = 29mm/1.14
F23A = 29mm/1.14

Head Gaskets

BORE
H22A = 88mm/3.46
H22A1 = 88mm/3.46
H22A4 = 88mm/3.46
H23A = 88mm/3.46
H23A1 = 88mm/3.46
F20A = 85.5mm/3.37
F20B = 85.5mm/3.37
F22A = 85.5mm/3.37
F22B = 85.5mm/3.37
F22B1 = 85.5mm/3.37
F22B2 = 85.5mm/3.37
F23A = 86.5mm/3.41

THICKNESS
H22A = 0.66mm/.026
H22A1 = 0.66mm/.026
H22A4 = 0.66mm/.026
H23A = 0.66mm/.026
H23A1 = 0.66mm/.026
F20A = 0.66mm/.026
F20B = 0.66mm/.026
F22A = 0.66mm/.026
F22B = 0.66mm/.026
F22B1 = 0.66mm/.026
F22B2 = 0.66mm/.026
F23A = 0.66mm/.026

Note:
Gasket thickness measured after crush

Bearings

MAIN BEARING THICKNESS
Blue: 2.013 - 2.010mm / 0.0793 - 0.0791
Black: 2.010 - 2.007mm / 0.0791 - 0.0790
Brown: 2.007 - 2.004mm / 0.0790 - 0.0789
Green: 2.004 - 2.001mm / 0.0789 - 0.0788
Yellow: 2.001 - 1.998mm / 0.0788 - 0.0787
Pink: 1.998 - 1.995mm / 0.0787 - 0.0785
Red: 1.995 - 1.992mm / 0.0785 - 0.0783

ROD BEARING THICKNESS
Blue: 1.510 - 1.507mm / 0.0594 - 0.0593
Black: 1.507 - 1.504mm / 0.0593 - 0.0592
Brown: 1.504 - 1.501mm / 0.0592 - 0.0591
Green: 1.501 - 1.498mm / 0.0591 - 0.0590
Yellow: 1.498 - 1.495mm / 0.0590 - 0.0589
Pink: 1.495 - 1.492mm / 0.0589 - 0.0587
Red: 1.492 - 1.489mm / 0.0587 - 0.0586

MAIN BEARING WIDTH
H22A = 19.9mm/.784
H22A1 = 19.9mm/.784
H22A4 = 19.9mm/.784
H23A = 19.9mm/.784
H23A1 = 19.9mm/.784
F20B = 19.9mm/.784
F22A = 19.9mm/.784
F22B = 19.9mm/.784
F22B1= 19.9mm/.784
F22B2= 19.9mm/.784
F23A = 19.9mm/.784

ROD BEARING WIDTH
H22A = 19.35mm/.762
H22A1 = 19.35mm/.762
H22A = 19.35mm/.762
H23A = 19.35mm/.762
H23A1 = 19.35mm/.762
F20A = 19.35mm/.762
F20B = 19.35mm/.762
F22A = 19.35mm/.762
F22B = 19.35mm/.762
F22B1 = 19.35mm/.762
F22B2 = 19.35mm/.762
F23A = 15.47mm/.609

[2nrsOfSpringfield]

I may not totally agree with the above but it is 99.9% true... I just dont know if I would go so far as to say all other f22's are substandard to the f22a... either way thats not the point of my post.

The big issue with the f22 and higher rpms is going to be bearing life but given you run a good harmonic damper and not some un dampened junk underdrive pulley... you should not see much problem. then you can focus on the more important issue... a camshaft that will still make power up that high.

Btw I am a boost junky so, my suggestions always lean to that and depending on your goals... the cyl walls in the setup I briefly suggested will hold up just fine to moderate power/ cyl pressure levels. I also agree though that I would not hog out the cyls besides to put a hone on them if boost is a future possibility.

I did not notice that in briefly reading your post earlier, but as stated above the f series crank is forged.

the bearings arent the problem with these engines, its the oiling system. The F22 and older H series run a way bigger rod bearing .935" than we do in K series .740" with 99mm stroke. With that big of a bearing you have plenty of oil cushion as long as you can keep the the oil pressure up at higher rpms.

Here is why we feel the F22a is the best of the Fs. The F22a head has about the same size ports as the H22a were all the other F series heads have ports close to the D series size and flow close to 60cfm less than the F22a. Also the F22a has a completely different valve angle than what the other heads have allowing you to run bigger valves in the F22a head than you can in even the H22a head. Thats what allows a ported F22a head to out flow a ported H22a head and thats why Bisi uses it. The F22a blocks were cast in Japan were the newer ones were cast here in North America and got cheaper and cheaper over the years in the casting, quality control, and metal used. Thats why you will find some machine shops like ERL, who we use, that wont even touch the H22a4 or F23a block.

[big pipe]

thats alot of good info. would you recomend the f22a block over the f23 block?

[twkdcd595]

the bearings arent the problem with these engines, its the oiling system. The F22 and older H series run a way bigger rod bearing .935" than we do in K series .740" with 99mm stroke. With that big of a bearing you have plenty of oil cushion as long as you can keep the the oil pressure up at higher rpms.

Here is why we feel the F22a is the best of the Fs. The F22a head has about the same size ports as the H22a were all the other F series heads have ports close to the D series size and flow close to 60cfm less than the F22a. Also the F22a has a completely different valve angle than what the other heads have allowing you to run bigger valves in the F22a head than you can in even the H22a head. Thats what allows a ported F22a head to out flow a ported H22a head and thats why Bisi uses it. The F22a blocks were cast in Japan were the newer ones were cast here in North America and got cheaper and cheaper over the years in the casting, quality control, and metal used. Thats why you will find some machine shops like ERL, who we use, that wont even touch the H22a4 or F23a block.

The wider bearing surfaces are what create the oiling issue at high rpms compounded by harmonics, so thats where the bearing comment comes from. With a good damper though, one can avoid the harmonics that are increasingly present at higher rpms which can lead to those minor crank movements that breach the especially thin layer of oil the f22 have on the large bearing surface, leading of course to metal on metal contact. I should have added that the oil systems can be easily addressed (but I got sidetracked by work mid post and was trying to keep from posting novels) by ditching the balancer shafts and slightly modifying the oil pump to increase oil pressure (while reducing rotating assembly mass).

The f22a was not the only f22 to be cast in japan... so were alot of the f22b's just as a sidenote. You are right about the f22a head design, like you said bisi has been running the f22a head and saying exactly what you have for many years now. Which is obviously backed by his vast experience and sucess.

The thing to consider is that bisi also is an all motor guy, as you are... I am not, I am a simple boosted street car. So I am not having to exploit a motor for every bit of power I can possibly get like someone who is all motor would. I am forcing air through the motor (which easily makes up for any slighty deficiency my motor has in head design) and having way more power than I can use... so for me the b1 head is much more suited to my application. I can run an aggressive camshaft with good idle quality, maintain decent low end power (what low end power we have), great powerband for a turbo car, it came in my car, etc.

Dont get me wrong I do agree the f22a is a great head design (thats the head I would choose for all motor sohc f series or non streetcar build) and does flow more than a stock f22b1/b2/z2 head (some more than others). I dont know where your getting your 60cfm across the board numbers because I have seen flow charts of these that say otherwise depending on which f22b head your comparing it to. For instance if you were to comparing an f22a6 head to the non vtec b2 head, I could see such a large difference being possible but not when comparing an a1 to a b1.

Random fact, the f22b1 won a spot on wards top ten best engines list in 95 and 96... they apparently were rather impressed with the design, output, etc. of them at the time.

Lets not forget though that truely the best head of the f series is a f20c and f22c heads... although not generally included in a conversation like ours, they are by far the best heads technically of any f series engine produced. Argueably the best flowing 4 cyl head honda produced of any honda/ acura production auto engine, regardless of which series.

[2nrsOfSpringfield]

explain to me why you "think" the wider bearing is the problem. Its the same size bearing used in the S2000 engines, like our 2.3L turbo S, and the same size we go up to in turbo K applications to prevent the the rod knock problem the Ks have.

[twkdcd595]

Ok let me clarify, the wider bearing surface (not the sole root of the problem but part of the equation), increased harmonics at higher rpm the engine was not originally balanced for, and the oiling system also not designed or sufficient for higher rpm use can create a bearing issue.

A wider surface for load bearing is a good thing of course and I am not debating that.

[2nrsOfSpringfield]

ok cool, that we can agree on. I wasnt sure, it sounded like your were saying its just the bearings fault.

[twkdcd595]

I agree with you on quite a bit of what you said, was just adding my personal thoughts from the boosted perspective. Nothing hostile intended toward you, you obviously are well informed and pretty knowledgable... something very welcome here.

I think me being at work when I am typing quickly and with broken thought makes for a confusing, imcomplete read... sorry. Honestly is great to see someone else with knowledge and appreciation for the outcast f series.

[2nrsOfSpringfield]

We are in the middle of an F23 (with a H22 LSD tranny) swap on a 98 civic right now. Its the third F23 swap this year for us. We love the F series. I think there is a guy that has been on this board that goes by lilryan, we did the F23 swap with Bisi cam on his car too.